Review: The God’s Aren’t Angry
I can’t say I’ve ever been to anything like this before. Which only makes me appreciate what Rob Bell is doing all the more. For three guys to hop in a car and drive 2.5 hours one way to hear basically a story we’ve all known for years says something about his appeal. Rob has a style about him, engaging stage presence, and a gift for story-telling. Last night was well worth the time.
The stage began black with a blue light shining down on an alter. When it was go time, the stage lit up and Rob entered. He allowed the crowd to applause, even acknowledging them with an applause of his own. Then he began to tell a story. And he continued that story for the next 100 minutes.
Rob took us down paths of cavemen and cavewomen, chronicled the histories of ancient gods, and told stories of people acting the same today as they did thousands of years ago. But he also told stories of people stepping out and embracing the new reality. The fact that we no longer have to live in fear and trepidation, wondering if we are appeasing the gods, because there is a God that actually stepped into our existence and not only said he doesn’t need our blessings, but in fact wants to bless us.
Some would call that good news.
Rob wrapped it up by telling a quick series of instances in which people were living out that new reality. Stories of love and mercy and acceptance. He hammered them home as his trademark music (á la Nooma) started playing in the background. He ended by blessing us with a benediction.
It was a great night and I didn’t look at my watch once. I love a good story told well. Especially one that’s true and offers that sort of hope. You can truly come out of that one saying Love Wins.
December 3, 2007 at 11:41 am
Mud Puppy,
I have been reading a few of your posts and I really like them. I think you have some good insights and thoughtful responses to our culture.
In response to your experience with Rob Bell, I do not want to discourage you as much as challenge you to consider 2 John 7-11.
My only problem, at this point, with Rob Bell is his promotion of universalistic teachings, particularly Ken Wilbur’s book “A Brief History of Everything.” If you have not read this book I suggest you at least learn about it; this is just one of many examples of where Bell’s teachings come from.
Even if his teaching appears good, encourages you, and even helps you in your faith, remember God challenges us to test one another and consider the source of all teachings (see 2 John passage referred above).
Teaching based/centered around conversation, stories, love can be good, even entertaining, but they could also be the path to destruction (see Genesis 3 and Eve’s “conversation” with the serpent). We are called to obey God (1 John), not discuss or debate what he meant.
That said, I love your post and the fact you were encouraged by the experience.
God bless you!
December 3, 2007 at 11:58 am
Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
I’m reminded of a famous quote of Rob Bells (ironically) — “God has spoken and the rest is commentary.”
I’ll check out that 2 John passage tonight, but I do believe that conversations about what God meant, as well as gaining knowledge of the context of the writings of the bible, is a very good exercise for a Christ follower.
But you are right, if we are not careful and diligent they could lead down the wrong paths. However I don’t think we shouldn’t still engage because of fear.
December 3, 2007 at 12:08 pm
I absolutely agree; as I said, we are told by God himself to “test” one another, hold one another accountable…which will involve discussion, conversation and debate.
All I am saying is we need to be careful when that conversation leads us toward questioning, “Is that what God REALLY said?” in the way Satan led Adam and Eve away from obeying God.
I just believe that sometimes when we start saying “let’s talk” or lets “love one another” we think that means we need to either all agree or we need to automatically accept what the other person is saying without critically thinking if it is truly what God commanded of us.
Rob Bell tends to lean toward a “relativism” in his teaching in that regards, reflective of the Wilbur book I previously mentioned. The moment we throw out absolute Truth is the moment we begin to slide down that slippery slope.
Just something to ponder and pray about (me included).
December 3, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Well, since these guys don’t allow comments, I figured I’d respond here….
What specifically do you consider untrue about this engaging story?
-Mud
December 3, 2007 at 3:42 pm
“What specifically do you consider untrue about this engaging story?”
Well, since you asked; I would point you to this for openers:
*Update* Rob Bell Agrees with New Age Guru Marianne Williamson
December 3, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Ken, you didn’t answer my question.
What specifically do you consider untrue about the engaging story I heard last night? You know, the one about how God loves us, and how Jesus sacrificed himself for us?
What part of that was untrue?
December 3, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Mudpuppy….as one who joined you in listening to Rob Bell last night, I heartily agree with your summation.
I must say I’m more than slightly confused by some comments posted here concerning Rob Bell. To use 2 John 7-11 to describe Rob and or what he taught last night is either a misunderstanding of the passage or a misunderstanding of what Rob spoke about (or possibly both).
He is in no way a modern gnostic. He not only did not deny the incarnation of Jesus, he very clearly and accurately presented both God’s plan for the incarnation, God’s plan for redemption and man’s desperate need for a Savior. He then, powerfully, gave an example of how that incarnation should now look in us today!
A bible passage that would more accurately describe Rob’s talk last night, from one who was there and was listening with a critical, not itching ear, would be: 1 Jn 5:13
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.”
What joy to know, with certainty, because of Jesus, how the One True God of the universe feels about us! Amen! This was the message spoken last night.
Story telling was Jesus’ favorite medium for conveying truth. It was nothing new. God’s covenant people have used story telling since the creation. In the scope of the history of men….writing is a recent innovation. Rob is doing an excellent job of resurrecting an effective method of telling the Old Old Story of Jesus and His Love! Bravo!
December 3, 2007 at 7:10 pm
If you want my answer, you simply need to read the article.
December 4, 2007 at 12:11 am
I saw Rob in KC nad left feeling like it was a universalist gospel presentation. He basically said everyone was already saved and repentance is simply realizing it. Repentance is change in heart and action, it’s not realizing that, whether you knew it or not, you’re saved and when you realize that, everything changes.
I don’t know that he is a universalist or that’s what he was trying to communicate, but do have some questions after this message. I have enjoyed his Nooma videos and the “Everything is Spiritual” tour, but this one left me scratching my head at the end. I know his goal is the for the unchurched to hear something on their level, but I don’t think they’d realize that turning your life over to Christ is needed to be saved. I would have thought I was saved w/o knowing it and needed simply to know God isn’t angry.
Besides, God is angry with sin. John 3
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s WRATH remains on him.”
Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
Would someone not knowing anything about God or the Bible be surprised at these scriptures after going to this? I think they would. I feel that if I’d been to this as an unbeliever that the message clearly said God isn’t angry in any way. Just what I took from it.
December 4, 2007 at 12:52 am
hello fellow WordPresser,
There’s a new bumper sticker out! I don’t so much disagree that love wins I just think that it is, like many bumper sticker too simplistic and doesn’t represent the Biblical balance of truth and love. Mars Hill likes their “revolution of love” but they are trouble in the truth arena…. “embrace mystery” says Bell, what’s that about? (none other than postmodern, anti-gospel trickery)
Also, when I consider that a teacher like Rob Bell avoids the topic of God’s wrath** I wonder if he truly can appreciate how loving Jesus Christ’s sacrifice of atonement really is. I can tell you that if God is surely angry at sin and that I was under His wrath before I was saved that makes Christ so much more precious! Grace so much more amazing! And love so much truer!
**I attended Mars Hill for a year and a half before God graciously opened my eyes to the compromising that is going on there. Two quick stories”
- I was in a worship service where worship lyrics were deliberately changed in the song “In Christ Alone” from “the wrath of God was satisfied” to “the path to God was opened wide”
- One of my friends mentioned that one morning when she attended the church service the worship leader basically said, “Let’s stop worshiping God for a moment and praise each other… tell someone next to you something nice.” (pretty blatant humanism)
yeah…. Rob Bell is really NICE, and Mars Hill is a really NICE place. They also are both straying from sound doctrine and leading people into false loosing or false binding in contrast with what Jesus and his apostles teach in Scripture.
Bumper Sticker Link
http://zonnumi.wordpress.com/2007/11/26/new-and-improved-bumper-sticker/
December 4, 2007 at 9:38 am
Joseph…
I went back and read the suggested passage. Here is the first sentance:
It seems to rely heavily on teaching that Jesus wasn’t the redeeming savior you and I believe his is. Rob Bell also believes that to be truth. His entire speaking tour was a testament to that fact.
Other people may have other issues with what Rob chooses to focus on (and anyone who has issues with love and grace being used to reach the lost I don’t know what to do for you), but on this issue it is very clear to me. Rob Bell is a Christ follower….
…and a GREAT speaker!
December 4, 2007 at 10:01 am
I too went to hear him speak in Indianapolis. I thought it was great and came away with the same feelings and thoughts about the night that you did. My friend and I drove 5 hours one way if that says something at all. It’s funny when you drive that far to hear a decent teaching (plus pay for it). I am puzzled though by much of the stirred up feelings that people have about Rob and his speaking tour. People seem to be getting bent way out of shape over things that from what I’ve seen and heard are pretty groundless. Especially all of the talk about him being relativistic and universalistic. I mean you’ve got to be kidding me if you think that he’s a relativist after that talk. He did everything but punch people in the face to say God is unique and different and completely righteous and different from every other religion. People that accuse him of this because of the books he reads and sometimes sites are pretty baseless in their argument. I’m sorry but when you do research you don’t immediately accept all of the convictions of an individual simply because you quote them or find them to have “one” particular insight into something. Bertrand Russell had some important things to say to our society but I’m not an atheist because I think he got some things right. Anyone that has spent anytime at all listening to his weekly podcast would know that he is a pretty solid guy when it comes to biblical knowledge and praxis. I wish people would simple listen to the guy before jumping to conclusions. They get bent out of shape because he doesn’t immediately talk about judgment and eternal damnation when he speaks of the cross but Bell knows as well as I do that most people are pretty familiar with that part of Christianity. It’s the part that separates us from everyone else that’s different and that was the point of his speaking tour. Besides he’s got plenty of people outside of his speaking engagements doing that for him (preaching turn and burn). I’m sure he’d hate to let them think they wasted their time protesting for nothing in that cold.
December 4, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Mudpuppy and Tom,
I cannot disagree with what you are saying, particuallry since I have not attended the God’s Must Be Angry Tour (although it sounds as though pomonopost and Braverunninbear have), but your points were not what I was addressing; apparently I did not communicate properly.
What I am addressing, is that even if EVERYTHING Rob Bell himself is right on (I do not believe they are, but for argument sake, let’s say they are), the 2 John passage is saying it does not matter.
That is, if any of us endorse or invite into our homes someone who is preaching heresy (as Wilbur is doing), then we ourselves are just as wicked as the heretic. Rob Bell openly and vehemently endorses Wilbur’s universalistic book, A Brief History of Everything…among others (Ken Silva addresses these others real well on his website above).
What do YOU do with that?
It cannot be ignored; even if you like everything about Bell, everything he is saying is right on, but he endorses a heretic as being right on, at bare minimum you MUST question the foundation of his teaching.
All I am asking is for you to CONSIDER this…question this…and wonder, what is the foundation of his teaching?
Both pomonopost and BraverunninBear have very good points no one has addressed either.
December 4, 2007 at 12:38 pm
To Robert Chapman.
I understand Rob has a focus on what he talks about and b/c I haven’t heard his complete messages I won’t (and didn’t) say he’s relativistic. I didn’t say that he had to talk about hell (even though Jesus did). What I’m was saying from my experience in KC (and we, too drove 5 hours on way) was that someone not understanding the gospel would have gone away thinking everyone is saved and God’s wrath/anger is gone completely.
He DID mention repentance, but gave a definition that wasn’t about change…but of realization. There’s a difference. Belief is realization.
He DID say that God is the one God that there is and in no way validated other paths to God. But universalist teaching doesn’t teach other paths are true or valid, it simply saying that EVERYONE is saved regardless and the point is to “embrace” that. So, I don’t see any relativism, but in what I’ve heard and haven’t heard him say I’m wondering if he believes in Hell, God’s wrath and some other things which ARE biblical and things Jesus talked about.
He’s a great speaker, expositor and I’ve enjoyed much of his work. But, NEVER talking about both sides of eternity would be wrong. I really haven’t heard him talk about eternity, either. I’m not saying he has to on his tours, but I’ve never heard it anywhere and that’s pretty hard to reconcile for me. The Bible is too big to cover in the amount of time and where he chooses to focus is his method. Also, if people are familiar with “that part” of Christianity (I agree Hellfire and brimstone is bad, too.) then it needs explained in a loving way.
There were no protesters where we went. I’m not accusing, but asking.
December 4, 2007 at 12:40 pm
…Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to all creation.”
I’m still looking for that passage where Jesus says…Go into all the world and preach the wrath of God to all creation….
It sure is good to KNOW that God has made a way for us to KNOW how He feels about us!
December 4, 2007 at 12:55 pm
I had the privilege of seeing Rob in Philly at the Electric Factory. His message was powerful and real and raw and encouraging. He clearly pointed us all to Jesus Christ.
Mr. Parker, as several people (Tom and Mud) have clearly pointed out, the passage of scripture you’ve applied to Rob does not even remotely apply. Rob Bell clearly loves Jesus and the Scriptures and the souls of men. The man chooses to point out the beauty of redemption and peace with God through Jesus Christ. His emphasis is not on the negative. There are more than enough people sharing that portion of the gospel.
The good news is multfaceted, is it not?
Besides, Rob’s tall…like 6′3″…
And by the way, braverunninbear, love does indeed win, except in tennis.
Shalom
December 4, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Joseph, many have taken that 2 John passage to apply to other matters of doctrine in which they disagree with. That passage was directed towards a specific gnostic heresy that was beginning in the early church. John was combating the false teaching of those who did not believe in the incarnation. To apply that to Rob Bell is clearly a misapplication of the text. It really does matter what teaching, tradition, opinion etc. we’re talking about when applying this passage to those who would be labeled anti-christ. All that I’ve listened to, read and understand about Rob….and especially his talk the other night…he is certainly not anti-christ.
December 4, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Did Rob Bell say that he endorses the book and all of the writing, or does he simply say it’s a must read? Because I would say there are many books by atheists and heathens that I would consider must reads as well. Not because we agree with all or even anything it contains, but because of the perspective it brings.
Many of our history and science books today are from people that don’t even believe there is a God. That doesn’t mean we should shy away from them, or that they don’t include truth does it?
Here is what I believe you’re talking about. In Velvet Elvis Rob Bell includes as a footnote the following:
He also says…
I’m afraid what he’s saying is actually a tagline for the church I attend: Rediscovering Church In Our Generation
I found some more books that Rob enjoys reading.
December 4, 2007 at 3:31 pm
Tom…
The good news is that we’re saved from wrath and to understand why it’s good you have to understand wrath. You can’t appreciate why it’s good news unless you understand what you’ve been saved from. That can be explained in a rational loving way and at some point, a person must understand that. It may not be the first thing you focus on, but must at some point be understood.
December 4, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Scare tactics work sometimes. But to assert that I cannot understand why it’s good news until I understand wrath is flat out wrong.
Love for love’s sake evokes a response.
Over time, I begin to understand more and more what I have been redeemed from. But I did not understand the depth of that upon my conversion, nor should I have been expected too.
But I did understand love and forgiveness.
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (Jesus of Nazareth).
Does the Bible teach the reality of a literal, eternal hell? I believe it clearly does.
Does the Bible teach the reality of a love that conquers sin and death, of redeeming grace, of fathomless mercy, of peace with God in our Lord Jesus Christ? Absolutely.
Which is more helpful to a person in the throes of agony and self-loathing?
December 4, 2007 at 6:47 pm
So…let’s NEVER talk about it? I’m not saying that is the approach he needs to take, but at SOME point it would be addressed if you’re really following Jesus who did mention Hell. I’m not saying to use scare tactics or the old hellfire method. I’m against it. But, today it’s totally left out.
Nathaniel, I dol believe that grace, mercy, forgiveness are more helpful to a person in the “throes of agony and self-loathing.” But, a holistic understanding of the gospel requires that Hell and wrath be understood. Maybe for some that comes later, even after accepting Christ.
But, I am afraid of shaping a message based on “religious correctness” and fear of everyone not liking us. It’s a tough line to be sure.
December 4, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Wow this is a great discussion from all participants. I haven’t thoroughly listened to nor researched Rob Bell. What I see happening here that happens so VERY rarely is a frank, open, honest discussion of a truly hot button topic! There has been no name calling, flaming, or otherwise attacks on the persons posting.
Well done everyone!
My opinion on this topic, if anyone is interested:
As long as Jesus is preached, we all are doing His work. I am reminded of Phillipians 1:15-18:
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
December 4, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Please remember to whom this series is directed: the Lost. The lost already know how miserable they are, they need solutions, by learning about a Love that can save them. They will learn about the rest as they grow spiritually.
Jesus didn’t teach the doctrine of the Jewish faith, although he knew it well, he taught what people needed to hear to come to faith.
and for the record, I like the Rob Bell bumper sticker: Love wins, because God is Love, and if Love wins, God Wins. End of story…
December 4, 2007 at 7:46 pm
Someone before wrote:
It sure is good to KNOW that God has made a way for us to KNOW how He feels about us!
Yes it is, but kowing how He feels about us is not the same thing as repentance and faith in His life and ours being one through faith in His atonement.
I understand that there are some paralells to a feel good psychology here, but “I’m ok, your ok” is not the gospel and will leave the mind very much still set on the flesh and complacent concerning eternity.
December 4, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Scott,
Have you listened to Rob’s messages? Not just this tour, but his podcasts? I hear in almost all of his teachings the resounding truth that we are NOT okay. That’s why we need Jesus.
His messages are some of the most refreshing and encouraging, while at the same time challenging, out there right now. He is passionate about us finding our peace with God through Jesus Christ and then contagiously passing it on.
Do I sometimes wish he would be more black and white on certain issues? Yes.
Has he ever preached anything that directly violates scripture? Not that I’ve heard. He does preach things that violate certain people’s interpretation of the scriptures. But that’s a good thing. My theology has shifted on certain issues over the years. Things I was adament about years ago are suddenly either not as important or I’ve changed my stance altogether as I’ve studied the Word asking the Holy Spirit to teach and guide and direct and correct and expose.
Theology does not equal scripture. I think we all agree on that.
And we all agree that Jesus is the only way to the Father. And so does our dear brother Rob Bell.
I’m sticking to my guns…love wins.
December 4, 2007 at 8:19 pm
For what it’s worth, here is my synopsis on the night I went and saw Rob:
http://www.borrowedbreath.com/2007/11/27/the-gods-arent-angry/
December 4, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Thanks Sam. It is a good discussion.
December 4, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Welcome to the conversation Sam! You have nailed it! You must have an awesome pastor who has taught you well!
Lost people know they are lost…they are definitely miserable…and, as brother Paul would say, they are slaves to sin. When they learn the truth about Jesus, the Good News, that truth, will set them FREE! What does a prisoner need? To emphasize their low position in prison? To make sure they know they are miserable? No, they need to know they can be FREE!
No, the ones who needed to be reminded of where they came from, were those already in covenant relationship. Please note that Jesus’ harsh statements we always to the religious elite. The ones who knew the law. Jesus never put salt in the wounds of the wounded….He always offered a salve. He gave hope to the hopeless, sight to the blind.
In the ongoing work of discipleship….there is a time and a place for us to really understand where we came from…and what that really means. But, for those who are lost in darkness….the simple message is the light of love….Thank you Rob for being that light!
December 4, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I think the fact remains, does anyone know if Rob Bell does or does not believe in Hell? I haven’t made up my mind about him and that’s what I’d really like to know b/c I know what Jesus believed. That doesn’t mean it has to be the focus or first mention. But, wouldn’t Jesus words, if your right eye causes you to sin…be an indication that he wasn’t ALWAYS soft sell? He did mention that to people who knew they were lost.
December 6, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Sorry I haven’t been able to reply back from earlier. Yes Rob does believe in hell he talked about it in several podcasts a while back. I don’t have copies but the guy I went with to hear him speak has them on his ipod. I understand because the question of hell came up for me too. He spends a great deal of time dealing with the idea both in scripture and culturally. He talks a great deal about the three words used in scripture to refer to what we translate as hell and tries from what I heard in the podcast to effectively deal with their use in the context. I think if you talked to Rob Bell though from the interviews I’ve read you would find someone as perplexed as I am at the strong feelings people have about hell. It’s not the sense that we think hell is not important in terms of salvation but more how excited people seem to be over it. I don’t want to out right judge anyone’s intentions but it almost comes across in some of these discussions like people really like it that people go to hell. I’m sorry if my earlier post came off a little charged it’s just that I have a google alert set for Rob Bell so I get to read all of these blogs each day and more and more it scares me how much people enjoy that sinners go to hell. It seems like people almost need that to justify their lifestyle. I’m sorry but if you need hell to motivate you to be a follower of Christ then you’ve got something way out of whack. Besides I think that people have been influenced way more by greek culture and american media about hell than the bible. You know it fascinates me how little the concept of an afterlife had really developed for the jews yet when Jesus came to them it wasn’t his main point or even close to it to straighten out. In light of that we as Christians have made hell an agenda that I don’t think Jesus ever intended. It’s kind of like what Dallas Willard said we’ve made the gospel so much about sin management that we forgot that Jesus came to transform people into disciples.
December 6, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Thanks Robert. That’s the main question I’ve had b/c I hate to point someone toward a person before I know their beliefs. I agree Hell wasn’t the main emphasis, but if eternity is eternal, then it is more a major factor of our faith, but doesn’t in any way diminish what we do here and now. It’s a motivating factor as we are told several times to look forward to Christ’s return & Colossians 3 says “3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.” We will have an amazing life beyond our comprehension in eternity. So, we should look forward to that.
I don’t use Hell much, but it’s something a person at a point needs to understand and believe in if they’re going to understand truth. All truth is God’s truth. If they’re going to know the life that Jesus brings when they surrender to him, they need to know that life isn’t just here and now, but goes for eternity. That’s the point of the resurrection to know Jesus conquered death. I know the Hellfire and brimstone camp is missing the days where that was THE motivator. But some are dodging all together, which I believe is wrong too.
After all I’d heard from Rob I began to develop questions. And there were somethings I began to ask by what I hadn’t heard, but didn’t want to draw false assumptions.
I believe the tone of scripture is the tone we should have. It was very balanced and through time some things have been emphasized more than others. I think you’re reacting to me based on others, but that’s understandable. I do it too.
I don’t blog much on religious stuff b/c it’s so full of reaction and assumption that go into looking at what a person has said in one small way and we categorize them quickly. Thanks again.
December 6, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Also, if I were a nonbeliever I think the question I would have (and had) was why did God have his son die? Why wouldn’t he just forgive? To understand the cross and why Jesus had to die, you have to understand His wrath for sin, but love for man. His justice & His grace. Understand as much as you can I guess, I still haven’t got it all figured out